Sarah Bamford Seidelmann shares the inspiration behind her new book (and first work of fiction), Where the Deer Dream.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann M.D.was a fourth-generation physician living a nature-starved, hectic lifestyle until a walrus entered her life and changed everything. She’s a Shamanic Mentor and the author of several popular books including her memoir Swimming with Elephants, The Book of Beasties, and a daily devotional How Good Are You Willing to Let It Get? Critics are saying her new novel, Where the Deer Dream, is “Enchanting!”
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Amy Hallberg 0:01
So last episode, Sarah Bamford Seidelmann and I were talking about the connections between creativity and mourning. And in fact, Sarah is a prolific creator. And this week, we are talking about her new novel that is just coming out, Where the Deer Dream.
You're listening to Courageous Wordsmith, Episode 58. This podcast presents conversation with, and for, real-life creatives on how we find and keep walking our unique paths. I'm your host, Amy Hallberg. Welcome to my world. Today, I'm talking with Sarah Bamford Seidelmann, who was just with us last week, and is now releasing the first work of fiction, Where the Deer Dream.
So welcome, Sarah. It's such a joy to have you here again.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 0:57
Thank you, Amy. Pumped to be here.
Amy Hallberg 0:59
Oh, my gosh. And you've written now, how many books have you written already prior to this one?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 1:04
Five. So this is number six.
Amy Hallberg 1:07
This is the first one that's fiction. And I find it funny that I keep saying that. Because as I read it, there are so many elements of, you know, just, you and I know each other. There's so many elements of your real life woven into said fiction.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 1:22
Yes, I think it was Anne Lamott, who said write what you know, right?
Amy Hallberg 1:26
Oh, my gosh, and I know these landscapes, right? Like, you know, you're describing restaurants that I eat at in Edina, right? And like, I know, these places, I don't know, Duluth as well as you do, obviously, but it's like, okay, these are familiar Minnesota landscapes.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 1:41
Yeah. I guess I decided I wanted to, yeah, place it in my own hometown, because, I don't know. I loved reading a book a couple years ago that I read by Lee Bangor, who is a famous novelist who just moved to Duluth, Minnesota. And he wrote a book that yeah, he bases in a sort of fictional town up on the North Shore. He was like, Yeah, I mean, this is what I know. And I love this place that I live in, and parts of it are an ode to, yeah, loving the earth and land around that I get to, you know, live on every day here up in northern Minnesota.
Amy Hallberg 2:14
Well, and there are paint colors that you mentioned, where there's an exact color of yellow, say, for example, and I'm thinking, I bet that's on one of your actual walls.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 2:24
Several of them are currently in my house. And some have been either in previous homes, or I've just fantasized about painting a room one of those colors.
Amy Hallberg 2:32
This is actually a work of fiction. So how is that different for you than writing all your previous books has been?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 2:41
Yeah, well, years ago, you know, when I was writing all these nonfiction books, it's like, you know, it comes from your own experience, like writing memoir is really fraught, because I mean, you're writing from your own story. But since in my case, it involved a lot of family members and beloved friends and things like that, I felt like I had to involve them. I mean, I know not everybody does this, but I really involved them and wanted to make sure that I was representing them accurately, although telling the story from my point of view. So it was a lot of like, calling around and double checking and these kinds of things. And I remember thinking at the end of that memoir, Swimming with Elephants and finishing it up, I was like, man, it would be really freeing to write fiction because you wouldn't have to ask anybody anything. You just do whatever you want. And so somebody had said years ago, when I wrote my second book, Born to Freak: Salty Primer...
Amy Hallberg 3:34
Which I have to recommend. I love that book, I just think it's much fun.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 3:39
The newspaper when they ran a review about it, they said, I would be really curious to read a fiction by Sarah. And I was like, ooh! You know, when somebody gives you an idea? And it took me years to kind of really take that because I was like, who am I to write a novel? I don't know how to write a novel. And then I, you know, kind of put myself through school sort of, so to speak, casually on the side to learn how to write a story. Yeah. Because like you I'm obsessed with story, and how does it work, and the magic therein contained in it, and I love live storytelling. And this was an opportunity for me to, yeah, tell a meaningful story.
Amy Hallberg 4:12
Well, and to your point, so you plant all these things at the beginning. And they're all hints at what's to come. And yet, so you want to plant enough that the readers are going to follow so that they see there's something, where are we going, but not so much that you give it away? So that's a tricky thing to weave, I would imagine.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 4:32
It is. And like, you know, in this crazy world, where it's like, you know, it's all about book sales and all this kind of thing that if you don't hook them on page one or two, or line one or two, you know, like, you're doomed. And there's a lot of pressure, I think to myself, man, is that how it was with every great book I've read? I don't know. But I mean, I just did the best I could to sort of, yeah, intrigue without giving away the farm, so to speak in the beginning. Well, okay.
Amy Hallberg 4:58
And since you mentioned the first page On the very first page, the character mentions that her favorite book is the Book of Beasties [which Sarah wrote]. I think that book has a very special place in your heart and sort of the representation of the core of the work that you like to do. So what was your thought process as you chose to include that work on the first page?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 5:23
Well, as I was working on the story, some early help from some dear friends Nancy Phares, who's a dear friend, and also coach, she said, you know, you know what she needs. And I was like, no, tell me what she needs. She needs a spirit animal. You know, this is your book. And I was like, oh, Doh, you know, how do you have that most obvious suggestion? And so, as I developed this character, Meera, it was like giving her the spirit animal, but it was like, well, how would she, you know, how would she have, you know... How would people connect with these things? And how do you begin to learn these things? And I thought about for myself, the first way that I learned about this idea that animals and the spirit of wild animals could help an actual human out, in some way, was through reading a book. And so then we're like, well, let's give her a book. And then, you know, one of the people I was working for editing was just like, why wouldn't it be just your book, you know, and then it was really fun, because then we took some of the sections from the book in different points. Anyway... And it's a bit like, I'm sure some people might read it and laugh and think, well, that's rather meta or also, you know, self promotional.
Amy Hallberg 6:32
I love it. I loved it, Sarah, I was like, you know what? Own it, you know?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 6:38
And people do love that book, so. And it was such a blessing to receive and get to work on that book. I mean, I'm so grateful to all the animals spirits, who came and shared their wisdom with me. And so, yeah, it's another way to share that with other people. And I hope the young people, and that's why I was so excited to write a story about a young person, because I'm hoping that this will also, I mean, I won't touch just my demographic, which is women who now like probably have older kids or kids that are moving out, I hope that it'll touch, yeah, that 17 to 29 year olds to you know,
Amy Hallberg 7:10
That is such a tricky age anyway, right? So when we meet Meera, she has a lot of goals for herself. She knows exactly who she is and who she wants to be, and how she's going to live her life. And she tells you very directly, here's, here's my life. Ta da! I actually, my children just went off to college, and I have a lot of friends whose children just went off to college, 18 years old, and deciding where you're going to college is a very fraught time in our lives. And then Meera has some added complications that put her plans in jeopardy. So you really set her up for a place where she really could use a spirit animal.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 7:46
Yeah. And I think a lot of us have plans for our lives. You know, in my case, I was like, Well, I'm going to be a doctor, you know, and I was a doctor. And then there came this surprising day or period of time, anyway, I realized, well, I really just don't think I can do that for any longer, you know, these unexpected twists and turns. And I think whether you're 18, or whether you're 52, and you've got plans, I mean, be ready for them to be derailed and be open to what is trying to get through. And I think that's kind of one of the things that I hope, invite people to kind of consider their, or connect them to their own story, you know, because of course, that's what great books are all about is like the story helps us. Maybe we don't relate to Meera, who lives in Duluth, who has these specific things she wants to do with her life, but we relate to the idea of, yeah, having a monkey wrench thrown into our perfectly laid plans.
Amy Hallberg 8:39
There's a conflict, there's a tension in the book between two characters, in particular Meera and her mom and Meera's very much... She gets this idea that like, she wants to go to Mexico and see a shaman to help resolve her problems. And her mom is very much like, let's go the scientific route. And both of them are using those paths trying to get sort of a magic panacea solution. Both of them, you know, they both want the same thing, but in very different ways. And there's a lot of conflict between those two characters. So I wanted to know, as you were writing those characters, what you were thinking about, how did you relate to that conflict?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 9:21
Well, for me, I think it was when I was that age, I had a lot of conflict with my mom, my mom just died last year, and when my mom died, I mean, we were on the best of terms and life was so good, you know, because of, thank goodness, lots of lots of opportunities for healing. But there was a lot of conflict between us and I wanted to kind of address that and what it's like to be a kid who's trying to differentiate from their parents and be independent and have a life separate from being with mom, but at the same time, also being scared because wanting to be connected to your mom, knowing that you really ultimately, like as myself as a kid, I really did long to be close to my mom, but I couldn't see any way how that was possible because you know, this really stressful conflict. And I'm sure I'm not alone in them. And I know a lot of people struggle with mother-daughter relationships. And so I wanted to talk about that. And that's really honestly where that comes from. And I have a lot of compassion for myself back then at that age, I have a lot of compassion for my mom who is desperately at the time, you know, trying to in Meera's case, you know, the mom is trying to protect her and trying to keep her safe, much as many of us do as moms. Talk about like, yeah, wanting to control things, right? As parents, we love our kids so much. If we could wrap them in bubble wrap and protect them from anything bad happening, we would. But then they wouldn't be on the hero's journey, right? So...
Amy Hallberg 10:55
Well, and in one of those cases, in this book, like the mother introduces the daughter to somebody who becomes really important. And the daughter, like, you can see her screwing up her courage to be mad about it. And at the same time, she's like, she's so grateful. And she's like, Mom, you shouldn't have done that. Because and the mom's like, well, I wouldn't have told you because you'd have said no. And she's like, yes, I would have said no. And yet, I mean, you have to think I kind of think the mom was right. I mean, the mom set herself up for her daughter's ire. But she also you have to feel for the mom because the mom did what was right at the expense of peace and harmony with her child.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 11:34
Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting one. I mean, I look back and so many times was like, like mad at my mom about things. Even when I became a parent. I remember one summer, probably 10 years ago, my mom said to me about one of my kids, she was like, you know, I'm really worried that your daughter isn't, you know, she's not signing up for things or asking you to participate in anything, because you're so busy. And I know, I can tell she's really sensitive to that, and she doesn't want to bother you. And I was so triggered by that. I was like, humpf! I mean, I was like, thanks, Mom. Anyway, dropping you off, get out my car. And it really, like really rang true. And I realized, oh my God, you know, like, I've been ranting and raving about how busy I am, not thinking about how that might make my daughter feel, who's 11 years old. And it was beautiful. Because she had to make that painful comment to me, which I knew she knew was gonna, like, send me, right? And she probably didn't want to, like, load me down with any more burdens, because I was so busy, but it's like, she did. And I was so grateful for that. And I was able to tell her that not too long after that actually happened. But I think as moms yeah, sometimes we have to make that unpopular call, to do something that we feel could help the person, you know, could help our kid. That's a fine line, though. You know, and, and also, we have to let them become adults, and let them make their own decision, let them let them fall, you know, they may just fly with something that we're scared to death, they're gonna fall, you know?
Amy Hallberg 13:05
You know, like, you have to read through what Meera is saying, right? But you kind of get the feeling, like you're giving us hints that this mom is really being very strong. Right? And one of the things the mom does is she recognizes, I'm actually not the one who's going to be able to help you. So let me step aside so that my sister can support you. The mom understanding that she can't always be the one to support and in fact, you know, when you talk about the shamanic journey, like this is not in the mom's comfort zone. Right? She understands this is something that needs to happen. And just that act of courage of letting her daughter go do something that that is really not within the accepted norm of what parents do. Send your kid off to Mexico for a shamanic ceremony. That's, that's a huge leap of courage on the mom's part. So I think it's interesting how you wove that in there.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 13:57
I mean, what it reminds me of is just this idea of, like, you know, love sets things it loves free. You know? It's like that image of like holding a butterfly in your hands. If you love it, you have to open your hands and just like, let it, you can't trap it and keep it it's gonna struggle, it's gonna die. It's gonna, yeah, that's some, one of the things as parents, we have to really be careful to live our own lives so that when our children do get to the age of 18, 19, 20, and they start to like fledge out of that nest, which as you said, is a fraught time it's scary for them. It's scary for us, just to let them go and do our, whatever personal work we need to do behind the scenes so that we can let them go. Because there's important lessons for them to learn and yes, she you know, she trusted her sister enough. You know? And I think the sister and the mother worked her over a little bit. So.
Amy Hallberg 14:48
Things that we don't see on the page that are happening behind the scenes.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 14:51
Perhaps, yes.
Amy Hallberg 14:54
So let's talk about that trip to Mexico. I mean, you are a shamanic practitioner, this infuses so much of your life, and I want to know why it was so important to you to include it in the story and what you hope people take from that part of the story.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 15:09
I think ceremony is a really good metaphor for life. It really teaches us a lot in a very compressed timeframe. So if you enter a traditional, like indigenous ceremony, you know, there's a beginning and a middle and an end, you know. And we have may have our intentions, and we may or may not get what we asked for, or we may have expectations about the way things are going to go just like we do in life. And I guess that's the main thing is, I wanted to introduce this idea that there's this process that you enter, you know, in a ceremony, as one of my medicine friends said, you know, like, these old ways that I'm talking about in the book are very hard ways to learn lessons and hard ways to receive healing. But on the other hand, they're very beautiful ways. And just like life, I think life can be very hard, it can be very beautiful. You know, it sort of has that corollary. And I think that whether you feel drawn to going to ceremonies of that nature or not, I hoped that people would get also understand the beauty of the messages, you know, of that experience for her. So, and I also I know, like my readers love traveling adventure, just like me. And so, to learn about this, you know, this deeper, these deeper practices that are going on and have been going on for 1000s of years.
Amy Hallberg 16:40
So I want to touch on two things, my mind is going two different directions, just like pinging here. One of them is these people are going into a culture that has been sometimes not been respected. The misappropriation, and one of the things I think you do beautifully is show how Meera and her aunt are invited in and how to take part in something like that, in a way that's very respectful, and that honors the situation and that does not exploit a culture that isn't yours to take.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 17:19
Absolutely, yeah, the way they had their connection was through a friend, you know, so it was, in a sense the shaman in Mexico was an old, old, old friend of the aunt. And I think that's a really nice way to enter into some kind of ceremonial situation because there's already a mutual respect there. The shaman has an apprentice and so you see the respect between them, and she and the shaman and how, I guess this book in a way to is an ode to all the beautiful medicine people who have kept these ceremonies going on for years and years and years. Despite the abuse, despite the exploitation despite that they carry on honoring these medicines and these old ways, in particular, Maria Sabina, who was a Mazateca shaman from that region and a beautiful woman, a beautiful poet. Back in the, I don't know, I'm not going to get my dates right, in the 60s, some white men from, you know, who are highly educated went down to Mexico. They wanted to understand like the new consciousness. They wanted to meet God, and anyway, they came back. This was Gordon Wasson, and they wrote a big article that went in Life Magazine, identifying the person that had done the work for them, the ceremony for them, and that town was inundated with tourists, people coming, hippies comin, you know, all the youth coming. That woman, her home was burned to the ground. She died basically in poverty but famous, and she realized she had made a mistake, because what they had come seeking was, they wanted to seek God, and what she said, and I'm not going to get her quote correct. But what she said was, these ceremonies aren't to see God. These ceremonies are for healing. And I made a mistake in going along with their request. So yeah, I thank you for bringing that up.
Amy Hallberg 19:15
Well, so it seems like there's a lot of hubris involved in what they were doing.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 19:20
Yeah,
Amy Hallberg 19:21
Sort of to categorize what this thing is and to contain it and this isn't something that can be contained.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 19:27
Yeah. And so sacred. Not something to put in Life Magazine. Something to quietly be in on respect of, perhaps.
Amy Hallberg 19:36
The other thing that I think you do so beautifully. I mean, as you say, this is a fairly... it's not the easy path to healing. I'm guessing that people who go so far to do these kinds of things, probably have exhausted some of the other methods that, you know, in the case of Meera and her mom, they're looking for solutions and they're not really finding solutions. I mean, there are solutions there, but they're not seeing them per se, right? That, you know, like, in the end, I don't want to give anything away. But in the end, they both get what they're looking for, just maybe not the way that they want to look for it. You don't make it look like, oh, yeah, they go there. And it's like Disney World and magic fairy waves a wand and life is perfect. And everything's good. Amen. Right? Like, that's not how it is. And so I think your depiction of it, you don't make it look easy. For some of the people there, it's a beautiful experience. And for some of the people there, it's a harder experience. And so I'm just curious what you were thinking, as you wrote that, because I'm guessing you took a lot of care in writing that particular portion of the book.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 20:43
What I wanted to show there is like, there are certain things that are really difficult and certain paths that are difficult, but are also very worth trodding upon. A story that comes to mind is like, I'm remembering this wonderful medicine man, when I was sitting in a ceremony one night, he started to tell us the story, when he was a young boy. He grew up in a small village in South America, he's like, I just want to be a healer, you know? I just want to be a healer and help people, you know? And he said, the next thing I know, you know, they had taken them to a ceremony, they had given him this huge dose of medicine, plant medicine, you know? Which in South America is, you know, a really common and then also in Central America, they use these plant medicines to heal people and also to teach, you know? And he said, the next thing, you know, I had all this plant medicine, and then I was running naked in the jungle and screaming, bring me back to my mommy. You know, like, terrified. It was horrible. And he said, finally I calm down, they put me in a hammock, I was swinging gently in the breezes, they brought me a nice glass of juice. And I was like, oh, thank God, it's over. I feel much better. And then they said, tonight, we will drink more medicine. And he was like, ah! And then he was like, all I ever wanted to be was a healer. And I remember just thinking, wow. Because that's, it's these trials, like over and over and over, that people go through to become these precious, precious individuals who can sit with people and their worst pain and their worst suffering. And they can tap into something greater. And this man is a person who can do that. And so I guess, follow your feel good, right? That's my tagline. You know, we can really get into escapist and like wanting to be happy and wanting to have everything easy, and be in alignment, and law of attraction, and all this kind of stuff. But I guess what I've learned is there's much to be learned also, in the difficulty, and in the challenge, you know?I mean, I think we all know that, you know? As one of my friends, Helen says, we never learn in the good times.
Amy Hallberg 23:07
Well, and I don't think that Meera would choose, or her mom, the experience she goes through. But at the end, I have a sense that she understands where she is in that landscape.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 23:08
Yeah.
Amy Hallberg 23:08
That's a beautiful thing. I really love the ending a lot. People are just gonna have to read the whole book and get to the ending but I love the, it was well landed. I thought, so kudos.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 23:31
I'm so glad. So glad.
Amy Hallberg 23:34
So for people that, you know, might be thinking about reading this, what would you want them to look for? Or take away? What's your biggest hope for somebody reading this book? Obviously, we have no control over what people take away from our books. But what's your greatest hope for them?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 23:51
I think just awareness, just more awareness of ourselves and more awareness of other people. Yeah, just more presence and awareness and more curiosity about where your life, wherever you're at, where it's taking you, and what might, what might be possible. Adoption is a big theme in there, too, three of our four children are adopted, international adoptees from Columbia and Guatemala. And so that really influenced, yeah, part of the book as well. And I pray that that is well received.
Amy Hallberg 24:26
So one of the things I love about this book, and your work in general, though, is that you do talk about hard topics. There are so many, as we record this right now, so many white women retreating into the, I don't want to talk about it. It's too hard. And that you're going there and you're touching on it gently and I think with humility, and so that's another thing about this book that I think is quite beautiful. So congratulations on that as well.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 24:55
Thank you. Yeah, I haven't even thought about how how people might criticize it yet. I mean, I thought about how people might regard this book...
Amy Hallberg 25:03
There's always a way to criticize, isn't there?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 25:05
There is always a way, so I am... Yes. I will continue to create regardless.
Amy Hallberg 25:12
But so more fiction or do you think you'll do more fiction?
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 25:16
Well, I thought about, if this book is well received, I'd kind of love to do a book two, perhaps? But we'll see about that. I haven't started on that. But I have some notes about that. And otherwise, yeah, I've got some ideas recently, but I'm really much more focused right now on creating visual art. That's kind of my focus at this moment. Funny, spiritual, sort of, I don't know, I'm just exploring lots of different things right now and really enjoying it.
Amy Hallberg 25:42
All parts of the beautiful ecosystem you've made. So, thank you so much for being here, Sarah.
Sarah Bamford Seidelmann 25:47
Thank you, Amy for having me.
Amy Hallberg 25:51
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode featured Sarah Bamford Seidelmann. You can read about her and check out her links in the show notes, including a link to purchase her new book, Where the Deer Dream. Backstage at Courageous Wordsmith, my editor is the talented Will Quie and my social media manager is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoy this podcast, you can help it thrive and grow organically. Please subscribe, right on this page, share it with your friends and sign up for Truelines, my letter for real-life creatives so that you can stay current with the future episodes I have coming up. And if you're feeling called to write and you wonder how I can help, you can learn more about me at amyhallberg.com. I'm Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely.